Bagnell told TTAG that he believes the problem with the striker-fired P320 is an inadequate sear/striker connection (he has images he says illustrate this on his website). They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. He wasnt aware of it until contacted earlier this week by CBC News and suggested it was relevant in ongoing litigation in the U.S. We look forward to reviewing the incident in discovery in the United States, he said Friday. At this point I would have to say that Taurus is a better handgun. So are dumb(or arrogant) cops. Yes, conspiracy to defraud is a thing when ones @ss is on the line. The federal government intends to order up to 20,000 pistols for the military to replace its Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power handguns in a project that could be worth up to $50 million. All polymer guns are cheap, cheap, cheap to make, thats why I threw the Taurus name into the mix. The cheap seats were $100-$200 and you got to watch Wrath of Khan with Shatner. While good firearms training and practices among law enforcement officers is certainly the case much of the time, weve seen far too many instances over the years of un-safe or downright dangerous practices by allegedly highly trained individuals to apply that kind of blanket endorsement to all cops or alphabet agency employees. The real tell is that of all the cases, most are cops of some kind. Clients such as law enforcement officers whose negligent discharges could result in their being disciplined or fired unless it can be proven that the gun was at fault. All those customers who paid $1600 now had a limited function paper weight. Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging By Tom Knighton | 11:30 AM on October 30, 2021 AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast Several years ago, there was an issue discovered with the. Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. , 54 people all shooting themselves. It offers the quality and reliability of Sig Sauer, with a tried and true striker system and ingenious features that make it a novel gun. BTW it was HK that made the first polymer gun, Glock actually stole the idea for the G17 from them. Right up front, the use of an ill-fitting/improper-for-the-gun holster instantly negates any idea of an unintended discharge being the fault of the design. Picard if Im limited to NCC-1701. The Glocks trigger had caught on a fold in the leather holster and it pushed the trigger part way back. While it seems that I have a preference for battle ships, The Romulans had Warbirds. If you did the same with a Glock or an M&P without the thumb safeties, youd get the same result. This will include an alternate design that reduces the physical weight of the trigger, sear, and striker while additionally adding a mechanical disconnector. And they think hey have an actual legit lawsuit on their hands? You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. Even if it was an issue with the sear interface, there is still a firing pin safety that will not move unless the trigger is held firmly to the rear. Being highly trained doesnt eliminate stupidity. That is exactly why all civilized countries have Government Agencies that monitor companies that have a callus disregard for human life and are only interested in the quick buck. What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! . The round went downrange so nobody was hurt. He likens it to a bow-and-arrow, pulled taut. Its the expert who gets caught up in the routine and stops paying attention. 3 disaster is true and if it is Sig will go all out to cover it up if it was. According to Section 22.05 of the Texas Penal Code, engaging in deadly conduct with a firearm is considered a felony of the third degree. Its just that with hundreds of millions of firearms in the hands of more than one-third of the countrys population including a lot of cops some number of negligent discharges will inevitably happen. Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. Result: Sig P320 goes off when dropped and shoots people. Well I jumped in bed with ma and pa , told them that the devil was in Arkansas. As a striker-fired pistol, the P320 is "under constant pressure to fire," Bagnell said. With the 320, the striker is in full-cock position, and held there through the operation of the trigger sear and the positive striker-blocking safety. ! only reveals ones immature emotional attachment to an inanimate object, which reveals a pretty childish worldview. Stupid marine, cop, citizen, its their fault. Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, resulting in injury and his unit withdrawing the pistol from service. The probable reason that some folks are saying that the P320 is unsafe is that there was a lawsuit filed in federal court in July of 2020 (Guay v. Sig Sauer) alleging that the 320 fired "un-commanded" without a trigger pull while in a holster. This subject has two prongs; One is the negligence of those who have shot themselves with 320s through violations of Rule 2, the other the possible mechanical design failing of the gun. As they should. He probably had a double until it was over. Carrying a handgun in a purse, particularly one that isnt designed specifically to carry a firearm, is problematic at best. Then after just three years without telling anyone they stopped all production including extra parts. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. The second, longer version of the ABC story again included comments from Joshua Harrison, the consultant ABC hired to independently assess the P320. I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. This is why we now have back up safeties on garden tractors and riding lawn mowers. My elderly aunt drove her Volvo into a parked car, and the yard behind it, and the house behind that, while she was pressing the brake as hard as she could. Strangely the car kept accelerating, almost as if she were flooring the gas pedal. Got a 40 SW P320 SC on my hip now, got one in 9mm within reach, so far neither has decided to trip the sear without my help. So the tally goes against the surrounding area, not against the gun free zone. So does any of this mean theres something wrong with the P320? It sure wasnt her fault though, because she was flooring the. It did not originally have this. At least the Lion roars when he is hungry, the C.E.O smiles at you and when you turn your back he puts a knife right into it. Its difficult to believe thats a coincidence. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Theres a couple of possibilities. I dont know nothing about Sigs, I do know any gunm that goes off when I lay it on a table gets sold with a warning and I never touch that brand or model again. While we dont have the actual numbers of similar lawsuits filed against other gun makers actually no one individual or organization seems to keep track of these things and gun makers dont want to talk about it it seems highly likely that every major firearm manufacturer gets its share of a regular flow of lawsuits filed by both civilians and LEOs who claim SHAZAM! They've also been adopted as duty guns by law enforcement agencies across the country. Whats this silly BS? and youve gotten this far reading our thread. At the risk of sounding superstitious lets review Sigs latest turd pistol. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. Manual safeties on pistols, hammer and striker fired systems were found necessary as far back as 1900. SIG Sauer, a German weapons maker with its U.S. headquarters in Newington, N.H., issued a statement Friday in response to a CBC News report earlier this week that revealed the Nov. 5, 2020, incident and the fact the weapon, the SIG P320, had been withdrawn from service while the military conducts an investigation. After the accident the unit returned to using the SIG P226 they had planned to replace with the P320. Each incident gives them more blood for their macabre dance, and another tic-mark for their context-free gun violence tally. It somehow moved to the hinges of the desk. The weapons are currently on the shelf and the soldiers have returned to using their older model SIG P226s. There were a lot of changes. Without a loser pays tort system, such abuse will go on and on. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. They simply have never been seen in the upper echelon of handgun makers, their entire business model is to offer cheaper guns at cheaper prices. Legal Penalties. . The P320 should be scrapped and SIG Sauer USA should redesign a new pistol around the striker firing mechanism instead of just retrofitting a hammer fired pistol (P250). He takes your wallet and car and leaves the SIG. Fine. Circumstances that explained those un-commanded discharges.. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. Then without any extra effort, the normal trigger pull caused the tab on the drop safety to sheer off. But Im observant enough to see the same voices that said in 1985 that This new fangled Glock is a just a plastic toy! But that's not working in the P320, he said. Thats deflecting from the real issue. PDs are dropping them from contracts. . NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. ALL OF THEM. Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. Which in and of itself is user error / misuse. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. Too much MIM in that crap SIG, the old ones were great. selling the 365 with strikers breaking? These lawsuits arent about Sig making a defective weapon, theyre about lawyers building a nationwide consensus in civil trial that makes it easier (and more lucrative) to soak gunmakers. It may be a rotten trigger, but it does highlight the fact it has a much lighter trigger compared to classic semi-autos and revolvers. (It wasnt my gun). -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! And I suspect at end of day this recent P320 one will be identified as a negligent discharge or from weapons from 2017 where owners failed to . Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. congrats. As a result, the P320s were withdrawn from service, leaving the JTF-2 with their older P226s. But as Officer Hilton says, There is no way anything could have gotten into my purseinto the trigger guard and pulled that trigger., This ABC report includes an interview with Joshua Harrison, a firearms expert hired by the network to examine the P320s design and give his opinion of its safety. Sig, take this firearm off the market, and recall. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/dea-agent-lee-paige-still-wont-go-away/. He was told to shoot two rounds. Glocks biggest problem is they havent innovated since 1985. ABCs own hired consultant, who appears to have no dog in these fights, asserted that he could find no reasonable explanation for these claims and that he considers the upgraded P320 pistols safe for sale to law enforcement and the public. Face it, you paid far too much for a plastic gun. In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. Theyve gotten tons of contracts because the gun is cheap, cheap, cheap to make. Plastic crap! 2) The p320 does have a half cocked notch. Stinking Lawyers and quota cops. The problem with Sig is with their polymer pistols. That show with no Shatner-Kirk and only a Nimoy-Spock wouldnt have gotten past the first season. Would you? Fourth, no one takes Taurus seriously. 3. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. Theyve now come to the attention of the legacy media. Time will tell if no. Inside the gun, a metal piece called the sear should keep the weapon from firing until the trigger is pulled. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio? The Nightline segment includes an interview with Major Peter Villani, an expert (paid) witness for Hilton. Likewise, having a finger in the trigger-guard, or a clothing draw-string, or a retention strap, or some other object, when holstering the gun exonerates the maker, as the gun is firing with a trigger press of sufficient energy and stroke as designed. Withe the P320 Sigs contract was $169.5 million, $103 million cheaper then Glock. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. For the moron Neanderthals of the Far Right who will scream its the operators fault and we do not give a shit about marketing more safer designed weapons, if such idiotic polices were followed for other consumer goods today we would not have safety glass, anti-lock breaks, back up safeties, child proof medicine caps and chemical bottles, back up cameras, kick back muzzles on chain saws and the list goes on and on. I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. Sig Sauer's P320 is widely used by police departments across the country, and is a big seller in the civilian market, with about half a million sold nationwide. Again the Far Right Stupidity and hypocrisy is infinite. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. We will respect the ongoing investigation and will not offer further comment at this time, Bineau said. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. They both underwent full testing but while the Sig was the cheaper handgun ($1.50), it also quoted higher costs for magazines and spare parts, boosting the overall cost of the acquisition. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. TTAG talked to Bagnell, who told us that he wants it to be known that he is not anti-gun and doesnt want to see more gun control laws in this country. What it likely means is that cops and other law enforcement officers carry and handle their guns far more often than the average Joe or Jane. The problem is non-existent. The safety WILL prevent the gun from firing with a trigger pull when activated, but it should never come to that. I own Serpa holsters in multiple configurations (1911, Beretta 96, H&K, Springfield, etc) for most of the time theyve been around and I NEVER had an ND. But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? First off, no joke on me. Have you ever put a handgun down with your palm in front of the muzzle? SIG P320s were just the start and the P365 isnt far behind. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. Liberal, Conservative. 1) The p320 doesnt hold the striker fully to the rear. Canadian soldier. About $300. If it were the guns, there would be thousands of cases involving citizensbut there arent. I dont own a Glock or a SIG and am not a fanboy of either. He points to it in the video. Whether or not the suits have merit. Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. It doesnt matter whether SIG is at fault or not. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . The incidents occur outside the forbidden zone, as we disarm before we enter so we stay in assiduous compliance with their nonsensical requirement. So even if, as the ambulance chaser claims, the striker leg could vibrate off of the sear face, it could not discharge unless the drop safety was also disengaged because the drop safety prevents movement of the striker sufficient to make the firing pin protrude from the breech face. First, clearing a loaded firearm with a finger over the muzzle doesnt exhibit even cursory adherence to the Four Rules. D. The thing is, youd probably need to generate many Gs of force in both directions simultaneously. How many times does a pistol have to malfunction before you blame it? But the reality is that the military has been using the Sig P320 for almost 5 years and they show no signs of changing. You need to deliberately thumb the Pythons hammer back to get that trigger pull, each and every time. To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. They passed every state and national drop test requirement out there. Guess it hasnt dawned on them that: 1. They suck and Im awesome!, 2. He was told to shoot two rounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM If the gangster greed monger criminal Capitalvanians in the gun industry had their products under the jurisdiction of the consumer safety administration all the newer striker fired guns would never have been allowed on the market unless they had manual safeties and a safe take down system. First I have no problem with the Mk 25 or any other Sig thats metal. Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle. Sig can burn for all I care. In the former case, you would need upward movement coming to a sudden stop to bump up the drop safety at the same time you imparted rearward momentum to the gun to try and move the striker. You have entered an incorrect email address! Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. Heres the version that ran Tuesday morning during the networks Good Morning America program . . If it were a lowered tier manufacturer like a Taurus having allegations made against them, people would run with it without thinking twice. The pictures on the internet were enough to scare the shit out of you especially his wound in the thigh. That took a lot. . I went to an outdoor public range with a local SWAT entry team leader. Having it as the ONLY trigger pull the weapon has seems (to me) clearly dangerous. And the idea some random comment section P320 hater thinks theyre smarter & more knowledgeable than the Army, Navy, Airforce, Coast Guard and Marine Corp combined regarding military pistol selection is just freaking laughable! The P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost . On Nov. 5, 2020, a recently-purchased SIG Sauer P320 pistol went off unexpectedly at a training range in Dwyer Hill, outside of Ottawa. Bagnell said he thinks the discharges are due to both design and manufacturing flaws on SIGs part. . Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. It upgraded its P320 pistols in October 2018, before the middle school incident, spokeswoman Amanda. hate to tell you this but most lawnmowers with the handle bar stop get tied down. But Shatner? I dont care about the upgrade that should never happen. Again, these are examples the plaintiff in this case is using to support his claim that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. The Collette suit, for example, lists 39 such discharges, all but five of which involved law enforcement officers. This highly trained Fibbie was doing flips while dancing (breakdancing? So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. Dont care for them, not my jam. Hey, Im glad theres somethings we agree on! I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. Zero in the affirmative. I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. Companies stay silent In fact, I dont own ANY striker fired polymer pistol. Trust a P365 with your life. Look a fanboy. I lost $200 on a gun that had less then 1000 rounds through it but I could care. Remember the stupidity of the far right is infinite and the blind greed of the gun makers prove they could not care less about human life and suffering. Either one could have been a gun or a Barbie. The bullet struck a soldier in the leg. They wouldnt have adopted it if was. Not sure why it wont let me reply to you, but Ill reply to myself in the hope youll get it. Such being the case, there very well may BE in inherent design flaw in the gun; We shouldnt just cast the thought aside as being beyond consideration and insist on blaming the problem on operator error.. So far I have only heard of one instance (post fix) where there was an ND and the post mortem on the gun demonstrating a mechanical failure. Im reading about a moron who wraps a loaded firearm in a cloth and stuff it in a gym bag, and other dumb behavior that tells me the weapon isnt the problem but the user. Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. Sig Sauer did not respond to ABC News' request for comment.
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sig p320 accidental discharge 2021